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Talk:On monster hit
Level Drain DC Is the note regarding DC for level drain accurate? It seems to contradict the note in the undead shape and Vampire_(undead_shape) articles. That is, DC = 10 + (attacker HD)/2 + (target CON modifier) Even though the last term seems like a bug, it is accurate to my testing with shifted vampires. Seems unlikely that it would work any differently for other creatures, so I am changing it to match the other articles pending some other finding. - MrZork 16:30, February 17, 2012 (UTC) :Though the behavior is strange, I wouldn't think of it as a bug. Because the constitution modifier is already being used to resist the effect, the DC calculation doesn't penalize the creature for having a high constitution score, rather it just causes the ability to ignore the constitution score altogether. It might be prudent to check other monster hit saving throws to see if this behavior is used in them also. WhiZard 17:19, February 17, 2012 (UTC) ::Sorry, I should have been more clear that I wasn't making a claim about whether the way the DC is calculated actually is a game bug by any particular definition or not. I meant that the term in the description may seem like a bug to players accustomed to just about any other level drain with a save, since, as far as I know, it is a rare (unique?) case of a saving throw DC that specifically negates the bonus of the relevant ability modifier for the save. Initially, I considered a longer note that emphasized that the odd behavior is actually what happens, but opted for just bringing the note in line with the other articles. - MrZork 18:50, February 17, 2012 (UTC) :Looked at stun, confuse, and fear, and they do not exhibit this behavior. WhiZard 18:13, February 17, 2012 (UTC) :Finished testing and slow, ability drain, and doom also use 10 + 1/3 * HD WhiZard 18:24, February 17, 2012 (UTC) * When I was testing these DCs, I tried every variation I could think of for the source creature's stats, but I did not think to vary the target creature. --The Krit 19:48, February 17, 2012 (UTC) :* When I was testing earlier, it was interesting that the high-CON creatures which generally have high hit points and good fortitude saves aren't similarly tough in this regard. (For example, I wouldn't usually put great hope in casting enervation or energy drain against most dragons, because their save bonuses are so high. But trying to level drain them to death in vampire shape may be a viable option for shifters, especially those with monk attack progression and flurry of blows.) I am not familiar with the mechanics of monster level drain in the PnP game, but I wonder why Bioware chose this behavior, if the decision was deliberate. I can't think of any other DCs that work this way... :: I like your edit. It reassures the reader that the unusual DC formula given is a reflection of actual unusual game mechanics, and not a mistake or typo. - MrZork 22:57, February 17, 2012 (UTC) ::* I suspect BioWare did not choose this behavior, but rather intended to use the attacker's constitution modifier (similar to how other DCs use ability modifiers). But that is just speculation based on an assumption that this could be caused by a typo-level mistake in the source code. --The Krit 00:06, February 18, 2012 (UTC) ::*It will work on many dragons, but not well versus dragon shape, as the undead shape vampire can only penetrate +5 DR, and the total damage is rarely sufficient to deal physical damage (which is needed for the level drain to trigger). Give him epic warding, or the like for a few rounds and then it would be much more probable. WhiZard 01:56, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Saving throw types I changed the saving throw types in the table for disease and poison to be fortitude saves versus disease and poison, respectively. The versus types are disease and poison, even with the scripted effects like sleep. - MrZork 06:22, February 23, 2012 (UTC) * The reason they were "per disease" and "per poison" is that they do not follow the same DC calculation as the others, instead using the 2da. Similarly the disease for standard on-hit cannot be set with a custom DC, it will use the DC from the 2da. WhiZard 18:32, February 23, 2012 (UTC) * A main reason I had them listed as "by X" is that there is no saving throw for the on-hit. It's not like stun where you get hit, roll a save, then get the effect applied if the save failed. Rather, you get hit and always get the disease/poison effect applied (possibly resisted by the saving throw inherent to the effect). I thought that listing the save in this table would cause some people to think that if you get hit by a weapon with "on monster hit: disease" then you would roll a saving throw to resist the on-hit, and if that failed, then the disease would be applied, at which point you would immediately get another saving throw to resist the disease. I could have listed their on-hit saves as "none", but then someone would probably think you don't even get the normal disease/poison saving throw. --The Krit 21:08, February 23, 2012 (UTC) :* Bumping this up again because I think it would be better to go back to the old way of listing it (here and on on-hit), so that readers are more likely to realize that there is not save for the item property. --The Krit 20:07, March 10, 2012 (UTC) :** I'm fine with that. I made the change because many players will look here to see what type of save will be made and what saving throw bonuses might apply. But, it's a good point that the present listing might be taken to imply there are two saves applicable. (The same would apply to the disease entry for the on-hit property.) Perhaps reverting the table could be coupled with a note that the poison and disease saves are always fortitude saves versus poison and disease, respectively, but that there is only one save and its DC is determined by the poison and disease types? - MrZork 03:03, March 11, 2012 (UTC) Duration and intensity of effect? The article notes that the duration depends on the creature's hit dice but doesn't elaborate. For poison and disease effects, they will be determined by the particular type of poison or disease. For the other effects, is the duration and intensity (when applicable) known? For instance, if a 10 HD creature with an "on monster hit: ability drain strength" property hits a target, how much strength will be drained and how long will the effect last? And, I suppose a related question might be are the effects magical, supernatural, or extraordinary? - MrZork (talk) 17:08, August 9, 2013 (UTC) * I don't know durations, subtypes, nor the intensity of ability drain. (My guess would be that ability drain is either 1 or d2. I doubt it depends on the creature.) Of the remaining properties, only level drain and wounding have intensities, and those are set as part of the item property (1 to 5). --The Krit (talk) 15:15, August 10, 2013 (UTC) * I can definitely say that ability drain is permanent as is disease (until it expires) and poison lasts for its primary and secondary damage (just like a permanent duration poison would act). The effects that last a duration based on hit dice tend to fall into the "mind-affecting" category. I am right now looking at stun and the durations do not seem strictly linear (it is close to level/4 rounds pre-epic and 1 + level/4 rounds epic). I am also fiddling back and forth with different things that may be associated with level (BAB, ability modifiers), but all of them so far seem to produce identical progressions with level.WhiZard (talk) 16:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC) :* Here is the stun duration. I'll look at the other on monster-hits to see if they use it. The duration is 1 round + 1 round for every 7 levels + 1 round for every 7 levels past the 4th level. Below is a table up to level 60 (the highest level of a standard creature) that documents the increases. WhiZard (talk) 21:33, August 10, 2013 (UTC) ::* So it's level * 2 / 7, rounded down (as usual), with a minimum of 1. Strange formula (at least I don't recall division by 7 elsewhere). --The Krit (talk) 23:01, August 10, 2013 (UTC) :::* The division by 7 surprised me as well. So far I am finding the same progression for confusion and doom. It might be that all the non-permanent ones follow this weird 2/7 amount.WhiZard (talk) 01:09, August 11, 2013 (UTC) * For subtype caution needs to be made. The scripting command GetEffectSubType() will not be accurate. It only looks at the last subtype identified with the effect ID (not the actual effect on the creature), and on-hit effects do not update the effect ID listing to match the effect on the creature (ApplyEffect...() commands do update the listing).WhiZard (talk) 16:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC)